Oprah Interview with Carole

EXCLUSIVE: THE NIGHT JOHN KENNEDY JR. DIED, CAROLE RADZIWILL ON LOVE & LOSS; CAROLE RADZIWILL DISCUSSES HER NEW BOOK "WHAT REMAINS"

THE OPRAH WINFREY SHOW, September 26, 2005

OPRAH WINFREY: The John F. Kennedy Jr. and Carolyn Bessette the public did not know.

Nobody talks about this and you are breaking the code of silence.

Carole Radziwill, on her beloved friends.

What do you want us to know, 'cause I know you know?

The night the plane did not arrive.

You are in bed at midnight...

Ms. CAROLE RADZIWILL (Friend of Carolyn Bessette & JFK Jr.): Yes.

WINFREY: ...and the phone rings.

The details, the rumors, the truth.

Carolyn made you promise something to her. What was it?

Next.

She was the first person to know something had gone terribly wrong with John Kennedy Jr.'s plane the night it went down off the coast of Massachusetts. Her best friend, Carolyn Bessette, had called her hours earlier just before takeoff to confirm their weekend plans. Carole Radziwill's husband, Anthony, was John Kennedy Jr.'s cousin and best friend. For Carole, the summer of 1999 would become the summer of tragedy.

(Excerpt from videotape)

WINFREY: It began as a Cinderella story. Carole DiFalco was a small-town girl from a working class family. Anthony Radziwill was a real-life prince tied to America's most famous family. His mother, Lee, was Jacqueline Kennedy's sister.

The couple met while working as producers at ABC News. They fell in love and got married. Anthony's best man was his cousin and closest friend, John Kennedy Jr. Early in their relationship, Anthony revealed to Carole that he had battled cancer and beaten it, but just before they married, another scare, a lump on his abdomen. The cancerous tumor was successfully removed. Anthony was in the clear and the future seemed bright.

For Carole, marrying into America's royal family had its share of difficulties. She says she felt like an outsider until John's girlfriend and soon-to-be wife, Carolyn Bessette, came on the scene. The two women became the best of friends, so close that Carole was the last person Carolyn spoke to before John F. Kennedy Jr.'s plane took off that fateful July night.

(End of excerpt)

WINFREY: So not only did she lose her best friend Carolyn and John, but three weeks later, Carole's own husband, Anthony, lost his battle with cancer six days after his 40th birthday. Carole's extraordinary story of love and loss is told in her beautifully written memoir called "What Remains." So anybody who's had to live through a loss and then another loss and another loss can appreciate it.

You begin the book by detailing the night the plane went down. And Carole's last conversation with Carolyn Bessette was just before that plane took off. It was probably, I would imagine, the last phone call that Carolyn made. Take a look at this.

Ms. RADZIWILL: (From videotape) `While we were still making plans, before they took off from Caldwell, New Jersey, she called me from the plane. "We'll fly to the Vineyard tomorrow after the wedding. We can be there before dinner," she said. It was a short conversation because I was going to see her the next day. I hung up the phone and opened the book I was reading, and an hour later, she was dead. Afterward, I tried to find something to explain what had happened. Was it cloudy? Were the stars out? But the night was ordinary. It usually is, I think, when your life changes. Most people aren't doing anything special when the carefully placed pieces of their life break apart.'

WINFREY: You went on to write that it takes seconds for a small plane...

Ms. RADZIWILL: Yeah.

WINFREY: ...to plunge into an irrevocable spin. At 9:38, the pilot made a curious turn...

Ms. RADZIWILL: Yeah.

WINFREY: ...and 180 seconds later, the last 30 of them aimed directly at the water, you were reading "Anna Karenina"...

Ms. RADZIWILL: Yeah.

WINFREY: ...in the front room of your house. I loved when you just said in the book how you may have paused once to take a sip of water, a glass of water on the table, and this is very likely what you were doing at the moment your best friend rushes to the end of her life.

Ms. RADZIWILL: Yeah. I...

WINFREY: I know you thought a lot about what that must have been like, those last...

Ms. RADZIWILL: I became almost obsessed in the year following that night about what I was doing at the exact moment when Carolyn was in that plane, every day.

WINFREY: So how do you picture it? How do you picture it?

Ms. RADZIWILL: I think maybe John may have known a little before, but the last 30 seconds of that flight, I think they all knew that something was wrong...

WINFREY: Obviously knew. Obviously knew.

Ms. RADZIWILL: ...and, you know, I used to, and I still sometimes do when I get on planes and even when I'm just walking around in the city, time out 30 seconds. It's a long time.

WINFREY: Yeah.

Ms. RADZIWILL: It's a long time when you're sitting there and you're scared.

WINFREY: When you're terrified.

Ms. RADZIWILL: Yeah.

WINFREY: So you and Anthony, your husband, who was ill, are in bed at midnight...

Ms. RADZIWILL: Yes.

WINFREY: ...and the phone rings. OK.

Ms. RADZIWILL: Yes.

WINFREY: Who was it on the phone?

Ms. RADZIWILL: It was a friend of John's, Dan. His nickname is Pinky. He said, `Hi, it's Pinky,' and almost the minute he said that, I knew something was really, really wrong.

WINFREY: Yeah.

Ms. RADZIWILL: And he said--he was at Hyannis Airport and he was waiting for John's plane, and he said, `But they're not here. Are they there with you?' And the moment he said that, I just--I don't know how much time passed. It could have been seconds, it could have been minutes. And I knew immediately that the plane had probably crashed. I just knew. Wha...

WINFREY: You thought that immediately?

Ms. RADZIWILL: I thought that immediately.

WINFREY: Yeah.

Ms. RADZIWILL: I just knew the minute that he said that that this was not going to end well.

WINFREY: So then you called the Hyannis Airport and said what?

Ms. RADZIWILL: I called and I spoke to the overnight maintenance man, and I asked if John Kennedy's plane had landed.

WINFREY: And, meanwhile, you kept calling Carolyn Bessette's phone number, cell phone?

Ms. RADZIWILL: Yes. Yes. I left messages hoping that she'd pick up, and then later on that night, I just called just to hear her voice, so...

WINFREY: So who notified the Coast Guard?

Ms. RADZIWILL: I did. I did.

WINFREY: So by this point, is Anthony up, 'cause he...

Ms. RADZIWILL: Yes.

WINFREY: ...he must realize that something is going on, 'cause you kept saying...

Ms. RADZIWILL: He...

WINFREY: ...to him, `Everything's...'

Ms. RADZIWILL: `Everything's...'

WINFREY: `...fine. Go back to bed.'

Ms. RADZIWILL: Yes.

WINFREY: So now you're going through the list of people to call.

Ms. RADZIWILL: Yes.

WINFREY: Somebody is trying to call Ted Kennedy...

Ms. RADZIWILL: Yeah. Yeah.

WINFREY: ...and Anthony said, `I have to find Caroline Kennedy.'

Ms. RADZIWILL: Yes. Yes.

WINFREY: Who called Caroline?

Ms. RADZIWILL: Anthony called Caroline. She was on vacation with her family, and he--this was probably about 4:30 or 5 in the morning at this time, and I thought I'd better call Caroline's mom. You know, it's the hardest call I ever had to make, and I hope I ever will have to make in my life. It was 5 and her husband answered the phone. I was glad because I thought, `Oh, at least I don't have to talk to her mom.' And I said, `They never landed at Hyannis. I'm sure everything's fine, but we're just looking for them.'

WINFREY: Moments later her mother called...

Ms. RADZIWILL: Her mother called. Yeah.

WINFREY: ...and said, `What's going on?'

Ms. RADZIWILL: And I said, `They didn't land at Hyannis, but I'm sure everything is fine.' And she seemed--you know, as you would at 5:00 in the morning when you get a call, she was a little confused, but I kept saying, `Everything's OK. Everything's OK. Everything's OK.' And then she said--out of the blue, she said, `Was anyone with them?' And I don't know, when she said that, I kind of thought she knew Lauren was with them.

WINFREY: Her other daughter.

Ms. RADZIWILL: Her other daughter. And I had to tell her, `Well, you know, Lauren was with them,' and then that was just heartbreaking. It was heartbreaking because she was upset. She kind of--there was a scream, but it was a muffled scream. And I knew the minute I said that, or that I told her, that it would be too late for this all to be OK, and then Anthony found--contacted Caroline and her family, and then we waited, you know, like everybody else. We waited...

WINFREY: Watching the TV. I remember.

Ms. RADZIWILL: Yeah. Yeah.

WINFREY: It was a Saturday morning, and I remember...

Ms. RADZIWILL: Yeah.

WINFREY: ...just sitting there in front of the TV. Were you not all? We were just sitting...

Ms. RADZIWILL: Yeah.

WINFREY: ...there, waiting, waiting, waiting.

Ms. RADZIWILL: Yes.

WINFREY: How did you hear about them finding wreckage of the plane?

Ms. RADZIWILL: On CNN.

WINFREY: On CNN.

Ms. RADZIWILL: Yeah.

WINFREY: Were you still hoping, as I know I was...

Ms. RADZIWILL: Yes.

WINFREY: ...and the people I was watching with, we were all hoping, `OK. Even after the wreckage'--we're hoping they are going to be somewhere, you know...

Ms. RADZIWILL: Yes.

WINFREY: ...like that shipwreck thing, and they're going to come walking out and everybody is going to go, `Oh, my God, there they are,' you know...

Ms. RADZIWILL: Yeah. Yeah.

WINFREY: ...that it was going to be--that he'll be...

Ms. RADZIWILL: That they were OK.

WINFREY: ...battered, a couple of broken legs.

Ms. RADZIWILL: Right.

WINFREY: Were you still thinking that or not?

Ms. RADZIWILL: I was thinking that, I'd say, until, like, Sunday or Monday when it became more real for me, when they were starting to plan funerals and...

WINFREY: So you were at the private burial at sea. What do you remember most about that day?

Ms. RADZIWILL: I remember we were all sitting on the deck of this Navy ship, and, you know, they were cremated, the three of them, and they brought the boxes out. And I couldn't stop thinking about--the boxes were about, like, this big. And I became just traumatized by the size of the boxes and...

WINFREY: Because you're thinking, `This is a life...'

Ms. RADZIWILL: Oh, yeah. Yeah.

WINFREY: `...this is what remains of the life'?

Ms. RADZIWILL: And--yes. Yes. And then we scattered the ashes at sea.

WINFREY: We'll be back with Carole Radziwill in a moment.

Coming up, the first time Carole met Carolyn Bessette and what it was like meeting John.

(Announcements)

Ms. RADZIWILL: (From videotape) `Anthony and John had been sharing a summer house for several years, though they are unlikely roommates. John is Oscar to Anthony's Felix. If Anthony is the angel, the English schoolboy, well-mannered, polite, John is the scamp, the one who's always late but for whom you hold up the party because you need him, the charmer, the one who gives a great toast with no notice, cracks the perfect joke in a tense moment. Watching them, I can see they can't stand too close to each other and can't bear to be too far apart.'

WINFREY: That was an excerpt from Carole Radziwill's new memoir, "What Remains." Carole's husband, Anthony, and John Kennedy were first cousins and best friends from the time they were little boys. And here they are at five and four. Cutest thing. Tell us about their relationship.

Ms. RADZIWILL: So cute. They were fun together. They were cousins but more like brothers. They constantly were constantly teasing each other and playing jokes on each other. And they kept each other grounded in a way that was really wonderful and fun. Everybody...

WINFREY: Wasn't the first time you met John in his--he was in his underwear?

Ms. RADZIWILL: Yeah, he was.

WINFREY: Yeah.

Ms. RADZIWILL: He was. I know.

WINFREY: Yeah.

Ms. RADZIWILL: I know. He was.

WINFREY: And he introduced himself as...

Ms. RADZIWILL: I mean, he introduced him--as John Kennedy. He never introduced himself as John F. Kennedy Jr. in all the years I knew him. It was always John Kennedy. And if you knew him, you know, for him to walk out in his underwear was not unusual. He felt comfortable and safe with you, and I was his cousin's girlfriend. And there's a bit of, like, a goofiness, you know, to him, though.

WINFREY: I think you write in the book that he is complete in a way that I've never seen.

Ms. RADZIWILL: Well, I think he was very self-aware and he understood the power that he had and the effect he had on people, and he did his best to dispel that immediately. And that's why he always--the first thing he did was introduce himself, no matter that everyone...

WINFREY: As if he needed an introduction. Yeah. Yeah.

Ms. RADZIWILL: Yeah, everyone in the world knew who he was, but he didn't--he really made people feel comfortable and at ease.

WINFREY: So then Carolyn Bessette came into your life, and you write about...

Ms. RADZIWILL: She did.

WINFREY: ...the first time you met her.

Ms. RADZIWILL: She did. Yeah.

WINFREY: OK. Let's take look at that.

Ms. RADZIWILL: (From videotape) `I was washing dishes. Anthony was running on the beach, and John was reading the paper when she walked out of the bedroom, blonde and 10 stories high. She walked across the living room and put a hand on my shoulder. She seemed to know me. "Hi, I'm Carolyn. You must be Carole. I forgot a toothbrush. Do you have one I can use?" Her eyes were as big as quarters and blue like a swimming pool. And she spoke softly, almost whispering. I thought that if we spent any time together, we would be great friends.'

WINFREY: Why did you think that?

Ms. RADZIWILL: When we met, we just had sort of this instant bond. We instantly liked each other. I saw something familiar in her and she did in me, and we just really--just clicked instantly.

WINFREY: Well, I--you write in the book that when you close your eyes and think of her, that you see her hands...

Ms. RADZIWILL: Yes.

WINFREY: ...that she was completely unaware of...

Ms. RADZIWILL: She was always talking with her hands...

WINFREY: Yeah.

Ms. RADZIWILL: ...and she'd always...

WINFREY: Yeah.

Ms. RADZIWILL: ...like, use them almost as a punctuation, like, `Let me tell you,' you know?

WINFREY: You say that she was unaware of them but they were threaded through every word.

Ms. RADZIWILL: Yes. Yes.

WINFREY: Yeah.

Ms. RADZIWILL: And she was always touching. It took me a while to get used to the touching because I'm not a--you know, wasn't a big toucher and a hugger. And literally from the first moment she met me, you know, she was--she didn't have that fake personal space that we all try to protect. She just really got in there.

WINFREY: You said she hugged you tight, as if she might never see you again.

Ms. RADZIWILL: She did.

WINFREY: Yeah. You say that and you Carolyn were both self-invented.

Ms. RADZIWILL: I think of it that way.

WINFREY: What do you mean by that? What do you mean by that?

Ms. RADZIWILL: Well, we both grew up in similar circumstances, she actually not far from where I grew up in Suffern. She grew up across the river, the Hudson River, in Yonkers. And they didn't have a lot of money. My family certainly didn't have any money, and we struggled. And, you know, we ended up in this completely different place. And there is a little bit of self-invention.

WINFREY: I'm wondering what happens, because as far as we know in this country, the Kennedys and the dynasty of the Kennedys, all of that that represents, is as close to royalty as we have had...

Ms. RADZIWILL: Yeah.

WINFREY: ...or will ever have still to this day. That's why everybody is riveted. That's why you can write this book because it's the Kennedys.

Ms. RADZIWILL: Yeah.

WINFREY: And so when you--all of a sudden you're there and there's John in his underwear and you're just a girl from, you know...

Ms. RADZIWILL: Suffern.

WINFREY: Yeah, Suffern...

Ms. RADZIWILL: And she's a girl from Greensburg.

WINFREY: ...and she's the girl from Greensburg--what's that like? That's what you mean by you have to re-invent yourself. You say and Carolyn were never completely comfortable with the Kennedys?

Ms. RADZIWILL: I think we both knew from where we came, and it's hard to forget that. You know, when you marry into an iconic American family...

WINFREY: Yeah.

Ms. RADZIWILL: ...and--there is a certain period of time where you have to adjust.

WINFREY: What is it you're adjusting to?

Ms. RADZIWILL: To the preconceived notions that I think that everyone else has about what this family is about and who they are. And to me, I mean, Anthony and I dated for two years almost before I met anyone in his family. And we were--kind of created a little world, just the two of us. You know, I was just aware of the pressure that would be on that relationship, and I think she was, too. She was very aware of it, much more so than I and she...

WINFREY: Yeah, 'cause she was in it.

Ms. RADZIWILL: She was it.

WINFREY: Everywhere she went...

Ms. RADZIWILL: I was just on the sidelines. I just got to watch.

WINFREY: Yeah, she couldn't walk. She couldn't move.

Ms. RADZIWILL: No.

WINFREY: She couldn't do anything.

Ms. RADZIWILL: No.

WINFREY: Every move and moment was scrutinized...

Ms. RADZIWILL: Yes.

WINFREY: ...in public. Yeah. How did she feel about that? How did she handle that?

Ms. RADZIWILL: She did not like that. I don't think anyone really can understand what that is really like.

WINFREY: No.

Ms. RADZIWILL: And she was a private person. She knew it would change when she married John. I think she would love to have stayed secretly engaged to him forever.

WINFREY: 'Cause she was secretly engaged but had told you, correct...

Ms. RADZIWILL: Yes.

WINFREY: ...to keep it a secret?

Ms. RADZIWILL: Yeah. Well, she was secretly--yes, she was engaged, and she told me, but it wasn't something she talked about. But she knew it would change when they got married. And she didn't like being followed. And they're very aggressive. You know, they follow very closely.

(Excerpt from videotape)

Ms. CAROLYN BESSETTE KENNEDY: Please don't get so close to me.

Unidentified Man: Don't walk toward me.

(End of excerpt)

WINFREY: Do you think she was misunderstood, Carolyn?

Ms. RADZIWILL: The girl that I knew was nothing like the girl you saw in those photos, nothing. You know, the girl that I knew was--you know, spent, you know, 12 hours a day in hospital rooms with my husband rubbing his feet in sweat pants and the teepato T-shirts, the only thing she would wear--long sleeve in the winter, short in the summer. You know, her hair was--you know, she was not someone who fussed about what she looked like or--she was just a real person. I think in those photos you see someone quite different. I don't recognize her in some of those photos.

WINFREY: You don't?

Ms. RADZIWILL: No, you know, with the hair slicked back and the movie...

WINFREY: Do you think she felt a need, though, because, you know, of the apparently insatiable need for the press and the public to make, you know, people into fairy tales, into not real people?

Ms. RADZIWILL: Yeah.

WINFREY: Do you think she felt the pressure to then look a certain way, be a certain way in the public?

Ms. RADZIWILL: I think she did. I think she understood that that was part of it and that she...

WINFREY: That's part of the deal.

Ms. RADZIWILL: That's part of the deal, and she was willing to do that and she loved her husband and that was part of his life. I don't think it was the part that she felt the most comfortable with. But it was really just a small part.

WINFREY: We'll be right back.

Coming up, Carole gives her view of the state of John and Carolyn's marriage and the secret Carolyn Bessette trusted to Carole.

(Announcements)

WINFREY: Carole Radziwill is here. Her husband, Anthony, was John Kennedy's first cousin and best friend.

So you were in on the inside and, you know, there were so many rumors after this tragic accident...

Ms. RADZIWILL: Yes.

WINFREY: ...about the state of their marriage, about her being on drugs or about talks of divorce. What do you want people to know?

Ms. RADZIWILL: You know, I...

WINFREY: I'm not going to ask you what you know. I'm going to ask you--because I know you know everything.

Ms. RADZIWILL: No, you know, honestly, you know, I think...

WINFREY: So what do want you to tell us or what do you want people to know?

Ms. RADZIWILL: I'll be honest. I think nobody knows what happens in a marriage except for the two people in it. I honestly believe that. No one knew, you know, what was going on in Anthony's and my marriage. I was her, you know, very close friend and I was very close with John. I knew more than, you know, probably anyone. But...

WINFREY: Which means you know...

Ms. RADZIWILL: What I do know is that they...

WINFREY: ...'cause you know...

Ms. RADZIWILL: I know...

WINFREY: ...like, Gayle knows everything that's going on. I know everything that's going on with her. I feel like I went through a divorce 'cause she went through one. I feel like--you know what I'm saying?

Ms. RADZIWILL: Well, in that case, I'll tell you...

WINFREY: In that case, the question is: What do you want us to know 'cause I know you know. So I'm not asking you that.

Ms. RADZIWILL: I will tell you I know that they loved each other and they were committed to their relationship. And I didn't read all the reports or what they said about her or him or them and their marriage, but I can tell you that it was--it's very--it's unfair and I think this is something that really has a way of distorting everything in life. And people don't understand the difference between fact and truth. And the fact is it is was a very difficult summer. The fact is Anthony was dying. John's business was struggling. The fact is that they were in marriage counseling. The truth is that they loved each other and they were committed to their relationship. And you can't judge someone's marriage or life in a snapshot, you know, of one month or two months or one summer.

WINFREY: So they were in marriage counseling is what you're saying? Yeah.

Ms. RADZIWILL: Oh, yeah.

WINFREY: Yeah.

Ms. RADZIWILL: But, you know, to draw a line from marriage counseling to divorce is just gratuitous and that was not the direction they were headed.

WINFREY: You know what is surprising? I will have to tell you this because I met Carole when we were both at Diane Sawyer's house, and I know Diane Sawyer has...

Ms. RADZIWILL: Yes.

WINFREY: ...been a good friend to you...

Ms. RADZIWILL: Yes, I worked with her.

WINFREY: ...and I became really good...

Ms. RADZIWILL: That was two weeks after Anthony died.

WINFREY: Two weeks after Anthony died...

Ms. RADZIWILL: Yes, I remember.

WINFREY: ...was the last time I saw you. You were practically in a fetal position. You were.

Ms. RADZIWILL: Yes, I think I was that whole weekend.

WINFREY: I said, `Lord, I hope the girl comes out of that.' Really. I really did.

Ms. RADZIWILL: Yes.

WINFREY: I thought you were bad. You were in a bad, bad, bad way.

Ms. RADZIWILL: Yeah.

WINFREY: Yeah.

Ms. RADZIWILL: But do you remember what you said to me at the end of the weekend?

WINFREY: No. No, I really don't. What did I say?

Ms. RADZIWILL: You got very serious, and you were saying goodbye...

WINFREY: Yeah.

Ms. RADZIWILL: ...and you sort of held me by my shoulders and looked at me straight in the eyes and said, `You're going to be OK. You're going to be fine.' And I thought, wow, I'm thinking of, like--you know, I hope I don't wake up in the morning.

WINFREY: Yeah. Yeah.

Ms. RADZIWILL: And you said that you just knew that there was something...

WINFREY: Yeah.

Ms. RADZIWILL: ...that you saw or something that you knew, that I was going to be OK.

WINFREY: I was trying to will that to you.

Ms. RADZIWILL: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, you did...

WINFREY: Trying to will that to you.

Ms. RADZIWILL: ...'cause I remember...

WINFREY: Yeah.

Ms. RADZIWILL: ...it all seemed good because I remember that.

WINFREY: No, I remember you being--didn't we go to get clams and you lost a toe ring?

Ms. RADZIWILL: Yes.

WINFREY: Yeah.

Ms. RADZIWILL: Yes.

WINFREY: Yeah.

Ms. RADZIWILL: We went on bikes.

WINFREY: And I found the ring.

Ms. RADZIWILL: You did.

WINFREY: Yeah.

Ms. RADZIWILL: You did, but it was a very special ring, because it was a very thin gold wedding band, actually, a little Cartier wedding band that Carolyn had. And she liked to buy--you know, girlfriends, you know, you like--she liked me to have sort of matching rings and stuff, so she bought it for me and she gave me that ring. It was the last thing she gave me that summer she died.

WINFREY: Yeah.

Ms. RADZIWILL: And it was just, like, a month before, and she was very excited about it. And we both--she wore--it was a wedding band, but we both wore them on our toes.

WINFREY: Yeah.

Ms. RADZIWILL: So I had my toe ring on, and then we went to the...

WINFREY: The clam place...

Ms. RADZIWILL: The clam place.

WINFREY: ...and you lost it and I thought...

Ms. RADZIWILL: I looked down and it was gone.

WINFREY: So I found the ring.

Ms. RADZIWILL: Yeah, you did. You did.

WINFREY: So you were one of the few people who were at that little small church where John and Carolyn were married.

Ms. RADZIWILL: Oh, yeah.

WINFREY: What was your favorite memory of that weekend?

Ms. RADZIWILL: Oh, you know, when we got to that island, I remember being so happy. Well, first of all, just to put it in context, Anthony had just had a checkup and there was no new tumors and no cancer. So we were very--we were in a wonderful place. And so we arrived that weekend, and it was just one of those magical weekends. You know, you go to a wedding and you know the two people are in love and it's a really special weekend. And the thing that made it more special was there was only about 30 of us on the island. It was pretty much a deserted island. And there was not one photograph, not one paparazzi.

WINFREY: Yeah, 'cause they did a really good job of keeping that...

Ms. RADZIWILL: And, you know, we were so proud of that. And I was so proud of her for that 'cause that was Carolyn.

WINFREY: Yeah...

Ms. RADZIWILL: She did that.

WINFREY: ...to keep that a secret.

Ms. RADZIWILL: Oh, yes.

WINFREY: You know, I don't think the public understands nor will ever understand, and you can't really expect anybody to 'cause...

Ms. RADZIWILL: Yes.

WINFREY: ...I think most people think, `Oh, I would take the press and the lack of privacy in order to be able to live this fantasy life.' People don't understand how it really feels like an invasion.

Ms. RADZIWILL: Yes.

WINFREY: And the best way I can explain it is this. If anybody has ever had your house broken into, and you go back and you realize that strangers have been in your things, that is what it feels like to be hunted by the press constantly.

Ms. RADZIWILL: Yes. Right.

WINFREY: And everybody hears all the celebrities complain about it, and you think, `Oh, well, you're a celebrity, and...'

Ms. RADZIWILL: Yeah.

WINFREY: `...so what? That's part of the life.' But it feels like somebody broke into your house and went through your things.

Ms. RADZIWILL: Right.

WINFREY: That's the best way I can say it.

Ms. RADZIWILL: Every day.

WINFREY: Every day.

Ms. RADZIWILL: Every day someone asks...

WINFREY: Every day. And it's different from when you're out in public and you do a public thing...

Ms. RADZIWILL: She didn't mind that.

WINFREY: ...and you're walking the red carpet.

Ms. RADZIWILL: Right. And she did that.

WINFREY: It's when you're being hunted by people...

Ms. RADZIWILL: Yes.

WINFREY: ...and you're having a private moment...

Ms. RADZIWILL: Yes. Yes.

WINFREY: ...you know, you're sitting on a--and there's somebody in the woods with a camera.

Ms. RADZIWILL: Right.

WINFREY: That's what it feels like.

Ms. RADZIWILL: Or you're going to the dry-cleaner or you're just going to get a cup of coffee.

WINFREY: Yeah.

Ms. RADZIWILL: And I don't think people really understand how dangerous...

WINFREY: No.

Ms. RADZIWILL: ...it is also.

WINFREY: Yes.

Ms. RADZIWILL: I mean, I remember once being with her, and she was trying to get away from a little pack of photographers. And she darted across the road, and she almost got hit by a cab. And I'm surprised that there are not more accidents.

WINFREY: Accidents. There will be. Well...

Ms. RADZIWILL: And I think there will be.

WINFREY: Princess Diana.

Ms. RADZIWILL: Yes.

WINFREY: So Carolyn made you promise something to her. What was it?

Ms. RADZIWILL: That I would be the godmother of her first child.

WINFREY: Yes. And do you all...

Ms. RADZIWILL: We were arguing about the name, because she wanted to--she said, `When I have a boy,' she wanted to name it Stash, and that was my husband's middle name and my husband's father's name, Stanislas, but they called them Stash, and it was just a great name. So we sort of argued about that. I thought there's some rules about names, especially in that big family. You can't just take a name. You have to ask permission. So I was, like, `I think I get that'...

WINFREY: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ms. RADZIWILL: ...but I gave it to her and then she...

WINFREY: Didn't you all used to talk about who would look better pregnant?

Ms. RADZIWILL: Yes. Yes. You know we talked about things girls talk about. We talked about things going on in your lives, about, you know, how annoying our husbands could be, you know, all of that--our therapy.

WINFREY: When we come back, we're going to talk about what it's like to live through cancer with somebody that you love. We'll be right back.

Coming up, what happened when John Kennedy confronted Carole just weeks before his own unexpected death.

(Announcements)

WINFREY: Carole Radziwill is here. Her husband, Anthony, was John Kennedy's first cousin and best friend. Three weeks after that fatal plane crash that stunned us all, Anthony lost his battle with cancer. And you say everyone was in denial about it, and nobody would talk about it, except John, who confronted you. What did he say?

Ms. RADZIWILL: Yeah. We were all sort of in denial. It was the way Anthony and I decided to conduct the whole illness, that he would have the cancer and I would take care of it and we wouldn't really talk about it. And we compartmentalized it. And it went on like that for five years. And by the fifth year, when it was clear that Anthony was not going to recover, John called me one morning and said that he thought Anthony was in denial and we needed to help him get out of denial. And it was odd because he was so formal with me on the phone. He's never like that. And--but he was very insistent that Anthony get through the five stages...

WINFREY: Of grief.

Ms. RADZIWILL: ...of grief. And I was very insistent that he not, because I didn't feel like Anthony wanted to. And I since read a bit about that. And it's very unusual for denial to outlast the disease. Usually...

WINFREY: At some point, you've got to realize, `I'm sick.'

Ms. RADZIWILL: ...at some point you do. And honestly, with Anthony, I think it did, and that's the way he wanted it and I had to respect that. And it was very difficult to not talk about it, but I knew that he didn't want to talk about it.

WINFREY: And so you think to the end he did?

Ms. RADZIWILL: I think till the very end he did not know that he was going to die.

WINFREY: To die?

Ms. RADZIWILL: Yeah.

WINFREY: Really?

Ms. RADZIWILL: You know, I'm glad about that. I'm glad for him. You know, that's how he wanted it. I remember the last day, I was still, like, organizing his appointments.

WINFREY: I recall in the book, "What Remains," that Anthony and his aunt, Jacqueline Kennedy Onassis, were both battling cancer at the same time...

Ms. RADZIWILL: Yes.

WINFREY: ...and at one point she called him and said...

Ms. RADZIWILL: Exactly.

WINFREY: `...I have something to tell you,' and he said, `I have to something to tell you.'

Ms. RADZIWILL: Yes.

WINFREY: `You want to go first?'

Ms. RADZIWILL: Yes.

WINFREY: Yeah. Yeah.

Ms. RADZIWILL: Yes. He was just diagnosed with cancer, and then she had just been diagnosed at the same time. And they were very close. And that was difficult for Anthony. And he had just had his--the first operation of many, many operations. And they would go for walks in the park together and talk. And sometimes I'd go with them, but I kind of stayed--I'd let them have their space. And then she died fo--very shortly after.

WINFREY: You write about--there's a heartbreaking scene at the hospital when I think that John had come in with a tuxedo on...

Ms. RADZIWILL: Oh, yeah. Yes.

WINFREY: ...and Anthony was in the bed...

Ms. RADZIWILL: Yes.

WINFREY: ...and the doctors thought that he was going to die...

Ms. RADZIWILL: That he was going to die.

WINFREY: ...that night. Tell me about that.

Ms. RADZIWILL: That was the time that we were in the ICU, and it didn't look--he had a massive infection. He had no immune system at that point, and the doctors really didn't think he was going to pull through. And...

WINFREY: And the Carolyn Bessette you know is the woman who sat with you in the hospital...

Ms. RADZIWILL: Every day.

WINFREY: ...every day for hours...

Ms. RADZIWILL: Every single day.

WINFREY: ...and hours rubbing his feet. Yeah. That's a special person to do that.

Ms. RADZIWILL: And I never told her this, but she saved my life so many times, so many times. I mean, there were so many operations over the course of four years, and then the last year, the chemo and emergency rooms every week. And she never left my side. And she made it fun, too. She's so much fun. She's just like the girlfriend every girl should have. It was, you know, pretty bleak, and we were in hospitals a lot, and--but there was something--she just found the joy in everything.

WINFREY: One day you guys went to get tulips.

Ms. RADZIWILL: We--just to get me out of the room, we would go on these little road trips. And she would invent some reason. Like, one time she decided I needed to get Hush Puppies. Apparently they were coming back in style. You know, Carolyn Bessette said Hush Puppies are in style, so I was, like, `OK.' And so, you know, we'd go to the mall and spend a couple of hours in the mall. And, you know, it was just--she just had a way of making it OK, and it was really, really difficult times. And she stood by my side. I mean, she was just always there, always holding my hand. And she just loved Anthony and would do anything for him.

WINFREY: We'll be back.

Coming up, Carole reveals one of the most tender moments between her husband and his best friend, John Kennedy.

(Announcements)

WINFREY: So again, back to that night in the hospital, John comes in in the tux.

Ms. RADZIWILL: That was...

WINFREY: He's been at some affair.

Ms. RADZIWILL: Yeah, we had been there all day. And it was about midnight, and Carolyn and I were sitting in the room, and Anthony was kind of in and out of consciousness. And John had to go to this black-tie affair, and he came in around midnight in his tuxedo. And...

WINFREY: You wrote in the book, `As he walked into the room'--you thought, `Here he comes.'

Ms. RADZIWILL: Yeah, we thought he could save us.

WINFREY: `He is the one who can save us.'

Ms. RADZIWILL: Yeah. He was made for the big moments, and he always pulled it out, you know, and this was a big moment. And Anthony was...

WINFREY: You said, `He's the one we can count on, the one who brings dusk and...'

Ms. RADZIWILL: Yes, sparkle and magic.

WINFREY: ...`sparkle and magic.'

Ms. RADZIWILL: We were hoping he still had a little left, and he did. He walked in. He walked right over to Anthony and held his hand. And he started singing a song, humming at first and then started singing, saying the words. And Carolyn and I didn't know what the song was, but it was a children's nursery rhyme. It was called "The Teddy Bear's Picnic." And Anthony...

WINFREY: What are the words?

Ms. RADZIWILL: `When we go down to the woods tonight, I hope for a big surprise.' It was a song that John's mom would sing to them when they were, like, 11- or 12-year-old boys, when they thought they were big. And she would sing this song to remind them that they were still little boys and Anthony recognized it and...

WINFREY: So John starts singing this song.

Ms. RADZIWILL: He starts singing the song...

WINFREY: Yeah.

Ms. RADZIWILL: ...and then Anthony, who hadn't really been conscious the whole night, started--he smiled, he recognized the song, and then he started humming along to it and they were little words, and Anthony couldn't really speak that well, but you could tell he was--and they just sat there and sang this song for a long time.

WINFREY: And in the book, I remember you saying that the doctors think that Anthony will die tonight...

Ms. RADZIWILL: Yes.

WINFREY: ...and John takes him by singing that song to the safest place he knows.

Ms. RADZIWILL: Yeah. Yes. You know, it was a place that I never had access to, you know, that I could never access of--you know, when you share so much together, you have that bond. And, you know, it's why you kind of feel like an outsider because I knew in that moment that there was something special between them that no one could ever have except for the two of them. And it was heartbreaking. It was just...

WINFREY: Heartbreaking yet very moving, too.

Ms. RADZIWILL: Yes. It was.

WINFREY: Did he go down even further? Did he move downward, spiral downward, quickly after John...

Ms. RADZIWILL: Yeah.

WINFREY: ...Carolyn and Lauren...

Ms. RADZIWILL: Yes. But, you know, he had such strength. I mean, you know, really really--he was very stoic and a lot of his family was like this. They're very stoic. And he got up every morning and went to dialysis and just--you know, I wanted to curl up in bed and, like, eat Pop-Tarts and just like not talk to anyone and--which is what Carolyn and I used to do all the time. And...

WINFREY: I could not believe that I read--this is what's so real about your life, which I know that, you know, famous people are just people.

Ms. RADZIWILL: Right.

WINFREY: But I did not know that you were so regular that you went to 7-Eleven to get Pop Tarts and SpaghettiOs.

Ms. RADZIWILL: I know.

WINFREY: That is very regular...

Ms. RADZIWILL: Yes.

WINFREY: ...OK?

Ms. RADZIWILL: We were regular.

WINFREY: That's beyond regular.

Ms. RADZIWILL: And eating them out of the can.

WINFREY: Yeah.

Ms. RADZIWILL: I mean, it's so tacky.

WINFREY: SpaghettiOs out of the can at 7-Eleven is not what I would have expected, but anyway...

Ms. RADZIWILL: You know, a big part of what I wanted to try to do with this book is, you know, we all led very complicated lives, and I wanted to bring some humanity to that. And when you're wri--I was very conscious of the fact that I wasn't writing about myth, that I was writing about real people.

WINFREY: Yeah. We'll be back with Carole Radziwill in a moment.

And later, how the Kennedys feel about Carole's book.

(Announcements)

WINFREY: I got to say this to you, because, you know, I have been friends with Maria for a very long time...

Ms. RADZIWILL: Yes.

WINFREY: ...since we were wearing each other's clothes. But I--no, since she was borrowing from me, but she was...

Ms. RADZIWILL: Oh, OK.

WINFREY: ...like, anyway, that was another whole lifetime. But I have to say, I over the years have respected the privacy of this family, and they are notoriously private and do not speak about anything.

Ms. RADZIWILL: Yeah.

WINFREY: I think Maria and I have spoken about the assassination of John Kennedy one time...

Ms. RADZIWILL: Yes.

WINFREY: ...in our friendship.

Ms. RADZIWILL: Yes.

WINFREY: So the fact that you are writing this book...

Ms. RADZIWILL: Yes.

WINFREY: ...is like breaking the code of silence.

Ms. RADZIWILL: Yeah.

WINFREY: It's, like, nobody talks about this and I respect their not talking about it. And to this day, I have not discussed...

Ms. RADZIWILL: Right. I was...

WINFREY: ...with anybody in the family that day, that night...

Ms. RADZIWILL: Right.

WINFREY: ...that John--John's too hard for anybody to talk about.

Ms. RADZIWILL: Right. Right.

WINFREY: So the fact that you would write this book...

Ms. RADZIWILL: Well, I was--it isn't...

WINFREY: And why did you write the book?

Ms. RADZIWILL: I was very aware that I was not reporting a story. I was simply telling a story. And in the end, it's my life story and my life with my husband and my life with my best friend. And I needed to write this book. In the chaos of the aftermath of that summer, I kind of assumed this responsibility to keep them all alive. No one asked me to, but I felt like I was the link to the three of them, and that was a huge responsibility. And, you know, it was never my dream to write a memoir. I don't even keep a diary. But I started writing this about four years after that summer, and I had moved on a bit with my life and I was forgetting things, details. You know, in life, I think so much is in the details. I was forgetting things, and it was making me anxious. And I thought, `I can't lose them a second time,' and it was such an unbelievable relief for me to get that out.

WINFREY: Yes. I think it would be a relief for anybody who's going through it.

Ms. RADZIWILL: Yes.

WINFREY: I mean, as I was reading it, I was thinking I guess lots of people...

Ms. RADZIWILL: Yes.

WINFREY: ...in this country and abroad...

Ms. RADZIWILL: Yeah.

WINFREY: ...deal with--have to go through the process of somebody dying and being there and in the hospital hours and hours. And I know lots of people are watching right now from hospitals who are going through that. So it would be very therapeutic...

Ms. RADZIWILL: Yes.

WINFREY: ...for people to do that.

Ms. RADZIWILL: Yes.

WINFREY: The difference...

Ms. RADZIWILL: Yes.

WINFREY: ...is this, that you say this is my story. I respect that. I respect your right to do that. But it would--it is also John's story.

Ms. RADZIWILL: Yes.

WINFREY: It is also Carolyn's story. And, you know, with all due respect to you, this would not be a book...

Ms. RADZIWILL: Yeah.

WINFREY: ...if you were not...

Ms. RADZIWILL: Yeah.

WINFREY: ...John and Carolyn's best friend. And so what do you say to that?

Ms. RADZIWILL: I think if you...

WINFREY: And everybody would say, `You know, we love you and we think that what you went through is really horrible'...

Ms. RADZIWILL: Very horrific.

WINFREY: ...but the publishers wouldn't be clamoring about your story.

Ms. RADZIWILL: I do think about that, and I didn't want to write a story that was about the Kennedy family. And I don't think this book is, although my publisher would be happy for me to say that it is.

WINFREY: Yeah. Yeah.

Ms. RADZIWILL: But I can't 'cause it would be dishonest. I think that that story is a story about four people. And I have to be honest. If they were--and maybe you disagree and that's OK, too, but if that were, you know, Tom, Bill, Mary and Jane, and those same things happened and that was a story about this young girl who grew up in a poor family, who moved to the big city and got a job at ABC News and had this amazing career and met and fell in love with a man and got married and all of that happened, I think it's still a great story. The fact that it's John and Carolyn, sure, maybe the publisher was very happy about that. But, you know, when I started writing this, I was really writing it for an audience of one. I was just writing it for me.

WINFREY: We'll be right back.

Next, how the Kennedys feel about this revealing book.

(Announcements)

WINFREY: Have you heard from anybody in the family?

Ms. RADZIWILL: Yeah.

WINFREY: And what do they say?

Ms. RADZIWILL: I think they're really proud of it.

WINFREY: Really?

Ms. RADZIWILL: I think they are. They've told me as much.

WINFREY: Yeah. Did you discuss the book with Caroline at all?

Ms. RADZIWILL: No, I didn't.

WINFREY: No. Yeah.

Ms. RADZIWILL: I didn't discuss it with anyone really. I just wrote it.

WINFREY: Have you heard from the Bessettes at all?

Ms. RADZIWILL: I haven't because I didn't really stay in touch with her mom after. I mean, it was a difficult time for everyone, so it was hard, but I wrote to Anthony's mom and I told her that I was going to publish it and she wrote me a lovely note back and said...

WINFREY: Lee?

Ms. RADZIWILL: Yes. She respected my decision to do it, and she thought that if this is what I needed to do in my life, she was going to be OK with it.

WINFREY: Do you feel--I know that when she wrote you the letter, part of what she felt was that you hadn't been able to move on.

Ms. RADZIWILL: Yes.

WINFREY: Do you feel that you've been able to move on?

Ms. RADZIWILL: Well, I think the book is evidence that I had moved on. You can't write a book unless you have perspective.

WINFREY: Yeah. Yeah. We'll be right back.

(Announcements)

WINFREY: OK. Thank you for being here. "What Remains" is a beautifully written memoir by Carole Radziwill, "What Remains." Thank you. Thank you.

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